Ukraine deserves better analysis than it has

Photo courtesy of Cédric Gras

How did you end up in Ukraine?

To be honest, Ukraine at first did not appeal to me at all. It was Russia’s Far East that interested me the most. I lived in Vladivostok and travelled through Siberia. The big cities of western Russia were much less interesting to me at that time. Ukraine was also way too far west. When I got there for the first time I felt too close to France, which I was fleeing from at the time. Additionally, Ukraine was flat, without mountains, without wide open spaces. I only moved there in 2010 only because I was offered a job there. I was 27 years old and had to earn a living. It was a good job – a director of the Alliance Française, which is an institution promoting French language and culture abroad. I was tasked to set up a branch in Donetsk. To be honest, when I say Ukraine was not my dream place, Donetsk was even less so. If I had to choose a place in Ukraine, it would not be Donetsk…

But you ended up there and established the branch of Alliance Française. What were your beginnings like there?

I arrived in Donetsk from Russia, while all my colleagues had come from France. Clearly, my vision was very different from theirs. To tell you the truth, setting up a branch of Alliance Française in Ukraine was much easier than it would be in Russia. There were far fewer obstacles. The difference between the two countries did not even lie in the level of bureaucracy, which is still very present in Ukraine, but was rather a reflection of their political choices at that time. Russia was already starting a discussion on the law regarding foreign NGOs and was introducing more surveillance over the sector. When in Russia my status was that of a foreign worker who had a residence and work permit, in Ukraine, I received an embassy employee card, even though I did not work at the embassy. However, what struck me when I arrived there was that, contrary to what I thought, Ukraine was light years behind Russia in terms of economic development. When I lived in Russia, it was at the time of high oil prices, and its middle class was starting to live well. Ukraine was less economically developed. This was especially true in Donbas where everything was still very Soviet – the mines, the architecture, even the statues. Donetsk still had statues of Felix Dzerzhinsky (a Bolshevik leader who is known for setting up the foundation for Soviet state security organisations – editor’s note), something that was not to be found then in Russia. There were also one or two Stalin monuments and nothing was de-Sovietised. I felt like I had landed in the USSR. In Russia I had such sentiments in only very remote areas. This was very surprising for me.

Were you then interested in political developments in the region? Could you observe any tensions between the two nations?

Yes, I could see some tensions. When talking about 2010, which was three and a half years before the EuroMaidan, tensions would have been too strong of words. For the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine, Donetsk was the stronghold of the Party of Regions and its boss, Viktor Yanukovych. It was his basecamp, one that he frequently visited. The locals supported his party not because they particularly liked Yanukovych, but because they thought that by supporting him, they were defending their culture, which is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian culture. Let me also emphasise that by saying this I do not mean they are Russian. They feel Ukrainian, but they are Russian speakers. Economically speaking, they were also defending their region’s coal and steel industries. We could then speak of a distant confrontation between the eastern and western regions which seemed far away. No one thought there would be an armed conflict. There was a political and cultural fight.

When I arrived in Donetsk, I looked for a Ukrainian language teacher, which turned out to be difficult. I finally found a woman who could not stop complaining about not being able to speak Ukrainian in Donetsk. Her resentment was interesting. The division was noticeable, but it was more along south-east versus north-west lines. In between, there were people speaking surzhyk, which is a hybrid of Russian and Ukrainian. Already back then my impression was that Ukraine was a buffer zone between Russia and the European Union. So, I would say that more than tensions there was a cultural and economic confrontation. The war in Donbas is indeed a product of a plethora of economic interests, geopolitical visions and identity issues. It is not a war between Ukrainian-speaking versus Russian-speaking sides. Another important factor to keep in mind is that the Soviet-era factories did not undergo transformation. Up until 2014 Donbas was a region of the past, one that did not question its Soviet identity in the 1990s. All these things were fertile ground for war, but no one saw it coming.

And what about the pro-Russian economic preferences of the region?

It was not only the Ukrainian speakers who wanted their country to move towards Europe. Russian speakers wanted that too. Overall, Ukrainian businesspeople wanted to expand much further internationally than just Russia. However, it is also true that because of their outdated industrial practices, they could sell their products better in Russia. While most of the coal from Donbas went to Russia, only a fraction was sold to other states. The same was with metallurgy and industrial products. Russia would purchase them accepting that they did not comply with European standards.

Were you afraid for your life at the beginning of the war?

In the beginning of the war I was not afraid as there was no military activity in the city. It was outside it. There were skirmishes here and there, fighter jets were flying over Donetsk but there were very few explosions in the city itself. It started to escalate after the first battle at the airport; a lot of fighting took place there. In fact, I was on the last plane before the explosions started. I was on my way back from Kyiv where I had a meeting at the French Embassy. I arrived at two o’clock and the fighting started at around five or six o’clock. We were really afraid that we would get stuck in Donetsk. There were no more flights and the roads had checkpoints. That was real fear: what if we get stuck on the wrong side of the front line? 

In your 2016 novel, Anthracite, Donbas is not presented as a region involved in the Maidan. It is far away from it being indeed Yanukovych’s “land”. And yet you also notice some grassroots initiatives initiated by its local population.

Yes. For example, in Donetsk there is still a statue of Taras Shevchenko, a Ukrainian writer and symbol of the Ukrainian language. He was the first literary man to write in Ukrainian. Spoken for a long time, Ukrainian was only formalised in writing by the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. It was the language of the common people, and Shevchenko raised its rank by writing in it. It is, therefore, a fairly new language. There are statues to Shevchenko in every Ukrainian city, including Donetsk. What is more, Donetsk inhabitants have never taken it down. Every evening, when the revolution was still under way in Kyiv, there were peaceful gatherings around the statue. At the beginning, there were no more than 100 people, and later the demonstrations never exceeded 200 or 300 people. So it never went beyond the square.

Afterwards, there were some clashes which moved to Lenin Square. There, supporters of the Maidan clashed with anti-Maidan protesters. The latter were quickly called supporters of Russia, although, in the beginning, they were only counter-revolutionaries. I think it is a bit quick to say that they were pro-Russian. More than anything else, they were there to oppose the Maidan’s movement. However the truth is that they also received support from the Russian side. Initially, the two camps were separated by security forces. However after a few days, things got out of control. There were deaths during these demonstrations. It is hard to say exactly how many people died. What is certain is that there were many young people on the Maidan’s side. On the other side, they were workers and probably those who were brought from the mines in an organised way. But we will never know the exact details of their coming. These protests did not last long because it became dangerous for the pro-Maidan people to organise them. Some had to flee to Kyiv and the demonstrations gradually stopped.

The anti-Maidan people lived in a post-Soviet world, but they were still mentally very close to what the Soviet era was like. The mines and metallurgical industries were much more than jobs where workers spend most of their day. The workers lived next door and everything in their lives was taken care of: holidays, school, even cultural development. It was like living with an extended family. These industries were defined by a socialist design. All life took place around the factory, people even got married in the factory. That’s why the anti-Maidan people did not necessarily come from Donetsk but other parts of Donbas. In contrast, people who supported the Maidan lived in Donetsk, a big city with universities. I think this fact played a role in creating the divide. Our experience from countries such as France, Germany or Belgium teaches us that closing down of mines is an economic tragedy and a political earthquake. It is thus necessary to completely reinvent these regions. And it is hard to move from one economy to another. There were a lot of signs that this revolution was coming to Donbas as well. There were a lot of problems with coal prices. The whole region had to be modernised but people were standing up to prevent this from happening. They were making a good living after all. In my view, what happened in Donbas in 2014 is similar to what happened in the USSR during the Gorbachev era. I would even say that some regions of Russia are, in many ways, like Donbas today. This explains Putin’s popularity in some regions. It is amazing how the worst revolutionaries become the worst conservatives.

What has had the biggest impact on you after you moved to Donbas?

The miners had a big impact on me. I enjoyed going down into the anthracite mines. In France this is no longer possible not without guided tours. Here it was like being in Zola’s Germinal. We were a kilometre deep underground with men with their shirts off to blow up the anthracite deposits. Sometimes we had to crawl into extremely tight corners. For me it was a journey into the past, for them it was their present reality. Again, as I said earlier, Donbas is economically “outdated”, and this was one of the factors that made it a breeding-ground for war.

Professionally, you promote French language and culture in Ukraine, but would you say that the French are interested in Ukraine as well?

Ukraine has never been very high on the French agenda and this is the main difference with Russia. In 2006 Ukraine removed visas for Europeans, which Russia did not do. It got easier for EU citizens to come to Ukraine. This is one of the consequences of the Orange Revolution. Since then many more French people could travel to Ukraine whereas it is more complicated to go to Russia. Since that time we (the French) also began to better understand what Ukraine is like. But that still does not mean much to the general public in France. For example, if you ask someone in Paris what Ukraine reminds them of, what you will probably hear is: “not much”. Agriculture and women, I would guess. This whole matrimonial market is quite well developed and even got more so since the abolition of visas. It is unfortunate to see that for many French people, women are one of the associations they have with Eastern Europe. The truth is that the reality in the region is very complicated and should not be limited to simplified images centred around Russia only.

Yet international interest in Ukraine has somewhat revived since the outbreak of the war in Donbas and the earlier annexation of Crimea. Was it not the same for France? France, after all, officially takes part in the negotiations of the Normandy format…

With the Maidan we saw hordes of French reporters coming to Ukraine, and that was new. Before, I knew two French freelance journalists in Kyiv. You could see them looking for stories. Their freelance life was complicated in Ukraine because it was not an interesting country to western people. Things changed for them in 2013. It’s a shame to say that, but the Maidan and the war have been a financial blessing for them. Since then, there has also been a lot more coverage of Ukraine in the western press. Having said that, I want to point to a gap that exists between what is actually written about in press and what people can absorb. When I discuss Ukraine in France, I do not have the impression that knowledge of the region has really evolved, apart from the fact that people know that a conflict is taking place there. This has contributed to an image of Ukraine as a kind of a frontline between the EU and Russia. I am not sure if that has advanced a better understanding of Ukraine rather than the events that are taking place. However, people have also made a step in their image of Ukraine as not being Russia. In parallel, I was amazed at how many people were afraid to go to Ukraine when there was – even during the war – no danger to do so.

Were you able to observe the reaction of the French during the Maidan Revolution? If so, what changes came with these protests?

What has always bothered me was how biased people can be in their reactions. Many people I dealt with were very pro-Ukrainian because they were anti-Russian. This was even true at the French embassy, even before Russia annexed Crimea. They also confused being anti-Putin with being anti-Russian. Right away, they wanted to bring Russia into the conflict. Again, there are many Russian-speaking Ukrainians and many of them chose Ukraine over Russian aid. There were very strong opinions. For example, my boss at the French embassy is supposed to be a diplomat and to stay reserved to current politics. And yet he too was extremely involved in the Maidan, which, in my opinion, was not right. He had a black and white vision of the conflict. And, in my opinion, Ukraine deserves a much better analysis than it currently has. When you look at the results of the regional parliamentary elections, you see that things are not as simple as it seems. Not everyone is exclusively pro-European, pro-Maidan or anti-Russian. There is a mosaic of people that make the overall image much more complex. Many Ukrainians want to avoid being taken over by Europe. It should also be pointed out that something serious has happened in Ukraine, namely the migration of millions of people to Europe. It really is a brain drain and a tragedy for Ukraine. Poland attracts many Ukrainians because its culture is close to them, language is similar and the country is a neighbour. The Poles have a labour problem and a grim demographic outlook. Thus, in my opinion, the pro-European choice of Ukraine has its limits. And, moreover, Ukrainian companies are not ready to face western competition. If Ukraine opens up too much, everyone will go to the West. Europe is draining the talent and labour away from Ukraine and I do not know whether Ukrainians are happy about that.

Regarding the war in Ukraine, in France we sometimes have this Manichean-like view of Russian aggression. Would you agree with that?

France has decided to play the negotiation card. The idea is to reconcile Kyiv and Moscow and to try to get them to compromise. Nevertheless I would say we have taken sides by sanctioning (through the EU) Russia and recognising its aggression in Crimea. For Crimea, it was simple: we judged based on the facts. Indeed, the Russians came to Crimea while it was Ukrainian territory; therefore, it was an invasion. As far as Donbas is concerned, I am not sure that France could have a significant influence. In fact, France is totally uninterested in this conflict.

What is France’s position today when facing the near impossibility of implementing the Minsk agreements?

I know some of the negotiators in the Minsk group who are fed up because it is not moving forward. They are at the umpteenth meeting between all parties and it is going nowhere. It reminds me of the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh until the recent war. During this period, there were unsuccessful negotiations. It was the recent war that decided things for everyone. As far as Ukraine is concerned, the Russians are playing the time card so that others lose interest. The Ukrainians, the only ones who really care about these territories, do not have the means to make things happen. And on the economic front, there is a joke that is told in the corridors during the negotiations: “whoever gets Donbas back has lost”. It would take so much economic investment to get this region back on its feet that nobody wants it.

Cédric Gras is a French writer and former director of Alliance Française in Donetsk. He has led long-distance travels and has a passion for the mountains and geography studies. The vastness of Siberia and the Russian Far East, the war in Ukraine and the Antarctic have notably nourished his stories and novels. He regularly contributes to various publications and magazines, translations or documentary films. His last book, Alpinists of Stalin, was awarded the Albert Londres 2020 prize.

Clémence Lavialle is a student at Sciences Po Paris, at the Dijon campus specialising in Central and Eastern Europe. 

Donbas, Eastern Europe, France, Ukraine, writer