Peace is still far from reach

Then in 1988, I was one of the founders of Azerbaijan’s Popular Front, a national democratic movement, and I was the only women on the board. After Heydar Aliyev came to power, we did not see any more possibilities to work and we faced horrible repression in 1995-96. Aliyev arrested more than 300 officers of the ministry of defence and around 400 officials from the ministry of interior. In 1995 I created the Institute for Peace and Democracy as a non-governmental organisation and we started to work on several issues. First, of course, was the human rights situation with the political prisoners. I created a list of political prisoners – from Soviet times till today – and we were monitoring allegations of torture.

One major issue we started working on was trying to get a peaceful resolution to the Karabakh conflict. We later worked on migration issues. When we saw Islam growing in the country, Arif started researching religion. Then we joined the international campaign to ban landmines. And, moreover, we also created the only women’s crisis centre in Azerbaijan under the umbrella of our institute. Without official support, the institute operated from my deceased parents’ flat – we lived in another flat. In 2011, a bulldozer destroyed the whole building which included all our records, our library, our equipment and our computers. Nevertheless we continued our work, and in 2011 we created the first and only common Azerbaijani-Armenian website Public Dialogue. The government was very angry over this, but we continued to work until we were arrested.

Let’s talk about your work on the Karabakh conflict. You both advocated building bridges between Armenians and Azerbaijanis…

ARIF YANUS (AY): We went to Armenia to take part in the international Chatham House conference under the auspices of the European Union.

LY: Before 2003, before Ilham Aliyev (current president of Azerbaijan and son of Heydar Aliyev– editor’s note) took power it was possible to organise meetings in Baku and invite Armenians to Baku and discuss openly. It was also possible to go to Karabakh. When Ilham rose to power, he barred citizens from Armenia from entering into Azerbaijan and organising international peace conferences. This is why we created Public Dialogue online, because there was no way to meet in Baku in person. It was possible to meet in Armenia (where Arif went) or in Georgia. So, the idea of Ilham Aliyev is, like all dictators, that he needs an enemy to tell the nation that they must unite together against this threat. In Soviet times we had enemies – the Germans and then the Americans and so on. Today, if you look at any authoritarian regime you will see that they have an enemy.

We also monitor student textbooks. In history books for 10-12 year-olds, for instance, it is written that Azerbaijan has been enemies with Armenia forever. The authorities create this kind of propaganda that begins in schools. They write that in the 7th century, when Islam was divided between Sunnis and Shias, the Armenians were the ones who were responsible. Can you imagine? In children’s books! They have created a situation where there is no possibility for a peaceful solution with Armenia. In 1992 we had the chance to win the war, Abulfaz Elchibey was Azerbaijan’s president at the time and Heydar was stationed in Nakhichevan (an Azerbaijani exclave, the Aliyev clan’s region of origin). Azerbaijani troops had spent a lot of money, bought a lot of tanks and so on and were coming to take Lachin (in Nagorno-Karabakh). The then Armenian president, Levon Ter-Petrosyan, contacted Heydar Aliyev and said “let’s sign an agreement that Armenian troops do not attack Nakhichevan and Azerbaijani troops will not attack Armenia from the border with Nakhichevan”. And Heydar agreed and signed.

More Armenian troops disengaged from the border with Nakhichevan and headed to Lachin which caused additional deaths on the Azerbaijani side. I wrote that during the Second World War we demanded that Britain and the US attack the Germans, but here we have the same nation – Azerbaijani from the mainland and Azerbaijani from Nakhichevan – yet they signed that agreement. It was the main reason why, at the end of 1992, we could not win. When Heydar Aliyev seized power, he was more afraid of the Azerbaijani army than the Armenian one. We had 33 special battalions of volunteers. He disbanded them, and in July 1993 the majority were arrested.

AY: Seventy per cent of Azerbaijan’s army were arrested and it was the main reason for Armenia’s victory. Before that, Azerbaijan was attacking Armenian positions, but without 70 per cent of its army, it became more difficult.

Do you think that if you solve the Karabakh issue, Ilham Aliyev will inevitably fall or do you think you need to get rid of Ilham first in order to solve Karabakh? Some parties in Azerbaijan think that even if you get rid of Aliyev, they still need to regain Karabakh – that is to say, it is still important to win the war instead of negotiating with Armenia…

LY: I agree with you, there are some political parties and individuals in Azerbaijan who think it is necessary to have a war with Armenia, and that it is the only way Karabakh can ever be freed. It is also the result of the propaganda I mentioned. When a child reads such horrible propaganda he or she just thinks about war. My thesis, which I repeat at every meeting in Baku, is that, yes, 20 per cent of our territory is occupied by Armenia, but 80 per cent is occupied by Aliyev’s clan. We are occupied like slaves. We have no rights and if we achieve liberation of this 80 per cent, then we can think about the remaining 20 per cent. It is important to understand that if all the Armenians who live in Karabakh see that there is true democracy in Azerbaijan, we can talk with them and slowly resolve the conflict in a peaceful way.

AY: When we met with Armenians, I asked the representative of the Karabakh Armenians: “What is your position if you know that one day you have the chance to live in Germany, in an independent Karabakh or in Armenia?” He said Germany; because Germany is a good country. When Azerbaijanis say they want Karabakh to be returned to Azerbaijan, Karabakhis respond that they should first return all the Azerbaijanis who live in Europe and in Russia. There are two million Azerbaijanis in Russia. If Azerbaijanis do not want to live in Azerbaijan, why should Armenians? That is why we need democratisation to solve the Karabakh problem.

LY: And Aliyev is exploiting this problem. Pay attention to what he said in April 2016 (the Four-Day War): the Armenians attacked first. This is false, and we know it through some colleagues. On a visit to the United States he was pushed on human rights and democracy issues. Before he went back to Baku, he gave the order to start the war. After the horrible Four-Day War, which caused the death of 200 people, nobody demanded human rights from Aliyev anymore. They all demanded a ceasefire and peace. He won. He is using this war for his own interests.

Leyla and Arif Yunus are Azerbaijani human rights activists. Both have been arrested and imprisoned by the Azerbaijani authorities (released on suspended sentences in 2015). Their most recent book Из советского лагеря в азербайджанскую тюрьму (From Soviet Camps to Azerbaijani Prisons) includes an account of their time in Azerbaijani prison.

Valentin Luntumbue is a Belgian writer, independent researcher and College of Europe alumnus based in Brussels.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Leyla and Arif Yunus, Nagorno Karabakh