On mythical identities of mythical countries

Photo: Klaudyna Schubert/MCK

From the perspective of the Balkans, it is truly fascinating that Poland hadn’t existed for over a hundred years and then was physically moved hundreds of kilometres westwards. In other words, a great amount of people had to leave their local homelands and move elsewhere, which is both tragic and fascinating from a literary point of view.

In the essay titled “A Galician Myth”, you write that the Polish writer Andrzej Stasiuk is a writer from your world.

Yes. This is possible because Galicia is a mythical land. Although the Galician identity is not connected to any country or nation, it can be clearer and stronger than many national identities. I identify with this and it fascinates me as my identity also is not directly linked to a specific nationality or an existing or non-existent country. We can imagine Central Europe as a community made up of mythical countries and mythical identities. The Habsburg monarchy really existed, but its myth was stronger than its reality.

If we speak of mythical lands, another one would be the Balkans. Where are they really located?

The Balkans? Now that is an interesting story! This word has been used as a curse and insult in all shapes and forms for 150 years. Depending on whom you ask, the Balkans will always be located to the southeast of where that person comes from. Austrians would claim that the Balkans begins in Slovenia. Slovenians, meanwhile, believe it starts at their eastern border. The Croats are offended if they are characterised as Balkan, even if that is a fact. To them it is obvious that Bosnia and Serbia are part of the Balkans. From the perspective of those two countries, Macedonia and Bulgaria are the Balkans. The Bulgarians admit to being Balkan, as they do not have much of an option to push this unwanted label any farther. But even to them this ugly world is always to the southeast of the place they currently reside. Understanding the Balkans through the prism of culture and identity, the region has been outlined by the former Yugoslav borders in the north and west for some 60 years. In other words, the Balkans begins in Slovenia and ends on the Bosporus straits. On the other hand, there is a cultural and historical argument for recognising everything south of Vienna, including the city itself, as the Balkans.

What are these cultural features that allow us to outline such borders for the region?

Even if the Balkan identity at times faces denial, it does exist and is seen in the poor music played in pubs. The Balkans goes as far as the music reaches. The inhabitants of the region share a historical experience and their identity is made up from a mix of Austro-Hungarian and Turkish-Ottoman remnants, experiences and cuisine. It is in the traditional food we can see this unique common space filled with mythology and shared memories. One can witness this extremely interesting combination of Vienna and Istanbul. These two spots could only be connected in the Balkans and nowhere else. When I go to Salzburg or Graz, I see it is its own world. Yet, fragments of that world exist in Plovdiv or Istanbul as well. This is all possible because I live in the Balkans and the city I come from – Sarajevo – is an unorthodox merger of these two distant styles of architecture and identity. This, in general terms, is the Balkans. All other stereotypes and images are false and imprecise. The Balkans is not a type of mentality, where people stab each other with ease or a never-ending fiesta in a Balkan slum. It is also not only a place of Roma. The Roma live outside of the Balkans as well. So why should the Balkans, and not France or Slovakia, be associated mostly with Roma?

Where did all these stereotypes come from?

As much as the Balkans is a mythical landscape, it is also a place of prejudice. It turns out that the term is easy prey for different sorts of manipulation. Emir Kusturica’s films and Goran Bregović’s popular music have had an influential role in creating a new image of the Balkans. Kusturica is a talented director who is respected across Europe. His vision of the Balkans did at some point become mandatory and in many cases the only one that existed, as people didn’t know of any others. Kusturica uses poetry of hyperbole in his work which has been misunderstood as the Balkan reality. It created a hyper-realistic picture of the whole region. It became a place where everyone is constantly drunk and happy. Where the sound of trumpets never fade and people are so emotional they love and kill for the same reasons. From an artistic vantage point this is very interesting, but it does not and cannot be connected with reality.

You are not alien to this type of mythologisation of surroundings. In the essay about your hometown you claim there are two Sarajevo’s – one fictional from your texts, and another real one influenced by the media and political discourse.

This mythical Sarajevo is part of my individual recollections and literary construct. I like these constructs as a reader and I enjoy mythical and literary cities. I prefer the Vienna that is described in literature than the one that exists in reality. When I imagine Sarajevo, I try not only to create a non-existent city, but also a place that never existed or could never exist in the future – that is if we assume there is no reality outside of literature. Though, I do believe that a collective mythology is nothing good for the community. The collective, incorporating elements of individual psychology, never ends well. I cannot imagine a context where this fantasising would have a positive impact. The collective does not have any imagination. There are only collective prejudices that come out of the fantasies and they in turn lead to totalitarianism, and even fascism.

When we speak of mythical cities, I come to think of an opposite example – Andrićgrad. It is a real city created by Kusturica, made from stone, based on mythology, visions and cinema. It is a place where everything has symbolic significance…

I have to admit I have never been there. I have avoided travelling to Višegrad (in Bosnia, not to be confused with Visegrád in Hungary, which is the namesake of the Visegrad Goup – editor’s note) for different reasons since the war. In principle, I do believe everyone has the right to create their own world on their private plot of land based on their ideas and preferences – as long as it stays true to some general rules and urbanistic concepts. I would like to stop here, however, as I haven’t seen Andrićgrad from up close. I honestly do not understand the point of building cities based on imagination.

Returning to Sarajevo… the cactus is a motif in your debut and most famous collection of stories “Sarajevo Marlboro”. It is about the war in Bosnia in the 1990s. In an essay you wrote in 2016 about a trip to Sarajevo, you describe an attempt to water a cactus that has already dried out. This metaphor sounds very bitter. How do you view the situation in Bosnia 20 years after the signing of the Dayton Agreement?

Bosnia is a very unhappy country on many levels. Nobody really wants it, none of its ethnic groups. The Bosniaks, or the Muslims, declare that they want Bosnia to exist. However, they do it in a way that excludes the two other communities. It makes no difference if one claims that Bosnia is unwanted, as Milorad Dodik (current president of the Republika Srbska, a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina – editor’s note) and his associates do, or if one says there should be a Bosnia without Dodik and his people – meaning without Serbs, as the other side does. Bosnia cannot be Bosnia without the Serbs and it cannot be divided as Dodik claims. Bosnia will remain in a vegetative state for quite some time. That is its unforgiving fate. I used to see some hope in the direct or indirect integration with Europe and I hoped that if it was integrated with Europe it would become European. Meanwhile Europe stopped being European itself and began its own disintegration, changing into something that reminds me of the Balkans and its worst stereotypes. It looks as though Europe doesn’t offer much hope for Bosnia.

The Balkanisation of Europe instead of the Europeanisation of the Balkans?

That is exactly what happened. Not only is it a Balkanisation of Europe, but a Balkanisation of the entire world. When I see Donald Trump I get the impression that I see “our man” – the worst stereotypes. It is hard to see a difference between Donald Trump and Voijslav Šešelj (the Serbian nationalist who was acquitted of war crimes in 2016). Both men are, as we say in Bosnia, “the children of two brothers”. It is not only restricted to Šešelj as we have lived for 25 years with similar Trump types as ministers and presidents. The problem meanwhile is that our Trumps have taken over the White House and Washington. This is what the Balkan conspiracy against the world looks like.

How do you assess the strengthening of Polish-Croatian relations within the Intermarium initiative?

The Three Seas, but not a single refugee. The Three Seas, but no Roma. The Three Seas, but without any Jews. Obviously, no atheists either. This blatantly Catholic initiative is an idea where everyone is Catholic, more or less like in Franco’s Spain. This is the kind of Catholicism that cries “Save us, Lord, from the Catholics who follow the teachings of the current pope”.

In a radio interview a few years ago you said that Poland is not in the East any longer, that it has become a normal European country in contrast to Croatia. When we discussed this in March last year, you said that you were unsure if Poland is worthy of its great history…

I believe Poland’s greatest misfortune is itself. Today’s Poland is turning its back on its great sons and greatest traditions. The thing that shocks me the most, in light of recent events, is that the people who undisputedly rule the country have roots in the Solidarity movement, the same movement that fought for freedom and solidarity among the labour force. I do not understand what the Jarosław Kaczyński of 30 years ago has in common with today’s Kaczyński. It is very strange and this is what I mean when I talk about renouncing the better part of your traditions. The Polish Catholic Church had a very noble and praiseworthy role during the Second World War, full of sacrifice – very different from parts of the Croatian church. Today, it seems the church is turning on its past, wanting to show it is worse than it was. I am interested to know what type of writers, musicians and artists would get through the criteria set by right-wing clerical xenophobes if they remain standing? What type of literature, or culture for that matter, could Poland then refer to?

A rise in xenophobia and nationalist sentiments is not only limited to Poland, however, but a large part of Europe as well. The Balkans region is also radicalising. Bosnia could be an example, as it is the place in Europe with the most recruited jihadists…

I would call this an “Eastern European syndrome”. I think the main reason is disappointment with freedom. Everything points to a failure of this democratic experiment that has been ongoing in Eastern Europe since the fall of the Berlin wall. It seems that people in Eastern Europe do not necessarily want freedom, just Coca-Cola. When they understood they won’t receive as much Cola as Paris or Berlin, they reverted to what they know best and what makes them happy. Communism is no longer, but there has been a shift towards something that is similar to the worst forms of communism, including its nationalist shape.

Let us take Croatia as an example. The central committee has been replaced by the Catholic Church. Instead of communism, we have the kingdom of heaven and eternal life. There are also internal enemies who are against our nation and its prosperity. They do not want to recognise that we live better now than in the times of communist enslavement. Everything is how it used to be with a slight change of slogans and a modified ideological matrix.

Right before our conversation, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague decided that Ratko Mladić is guilty of genocide in Srebrenica among other things, and sentenced him to life in prison. The chief prosecutor, Serge Brammertz, emphasised it was not a sentence for all Serbs. It seems many Croatian commentators did not agree with that view.

This, of course, is a sentence for a specific war criminal not an entire nation. Unfortunately the problem is that a part of the nation identifies with the perpetrator, viewing him as a hero. It is bad that the other side sees this as a sentence for the entire nation. It is more interesting for the Bosnian and Croat state representatives that a Serb has been sentenced as a criminal. When a Serb is proclaimed guilty, his countrymen claim that the tribunal in The Hague is biased, while the Croats or Bosnians believe justice has been delivered. This is also true when it’s the other way around. When a Bosnian or Croat is sentenced, it is a conspiracy while the other side is content. In consequence, there is no catharsis and no awareness of the crime itself.

Yet, you have written about the collective and individual responsibility of Croats for the Ustaše movement in your book titled: Father…

When I wrote that seven years ago, I was convinced that it was not exaggerated. Some friendly voices were reaching out to me to say that I could have put it in a more delicate manner as it isn’t completely true. Seven years later the same people that were motivated by this goodwill do not believe it anymore. After seven years I see that I was absolutely right. But this does not make me happy, nor does it stroke my ego.

Can we compare the situation in Europe today with the 1930s, as many commentators tend to do? You have often described this as the “silence before the storm” – a time right before the dissolution of Yugoslavia, or the year 1938 in your story about Wilimowski…

I think not quite. Larger European and non-European countries remain a bit healthier. We can observe it while looking at Germany. The far right party, Alternative for Germany (AfD), gained 10 per cent in the last election and is now losing support. There is no room in German society for a tide of fascism or the same hysteria we see in our region. France was supposed to have Marine Le Pen and ended up with Emmanuel Macron. Trump is also trying to govern now for over a year, with poor results. Suddenly there is a judge from a forgotten place that blocks his decrees making him furious, or someone from the general staff claiming he will not carry out Trump’s orders. The community and system turns out to be stronger than some loony individual. In Eastern Europe, we would like to be Central Europe. But, unfortunately, this is not the case. It is enough that a maniac appears and the whole nation is content.

Translated by Aleksandra Wojtaszek and Daniel Gleichgewicht

Miljenko Jergović is an award-winning writer, whose books have been translated into many languages, including English, French, Italian, Polish and German. He was born in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and currently lives and writes in Zagreb, Croatia.

Aleksandra Wojtaszek is a journalist, editor and translator dealing mostly with Balkan countries. A graduate of the Slavic philology, she studied in Kraków and Zagreb, currently working on her PhD on the contemporary ex-Yugoslavian literatures.

Balkans, Central Europe, Miljenko Jergović